| Tales From the Arena - nitraNa |
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| Posted By: Mason Groendal on: 04/09/07 at 04:06PM |

This week's 5v5 PvP endeavors began like any other week. Every week is the
same situation for me. I'm forced to ride the bench for the most part until an
opportunity arises where the Rogue class (which I am) can swap out with the
Hunter class (Reznap) to defeat the current group(s) queuing. I understand why
we do it, and, to be honest, I'm in favor for it. Rogues just aren't meant to be
played competitively in the arena 5v5 level. If I were to describe the 5v5 arena
class roles to someone who has never played the game, I can guarantee that
person would never consider playing a rogue... EVER. Why is that, you ask?
Because rogues have no almost no definitive 5v5 role. They offer no group buffs
and very few group de-buffs. With subpar burst damage compared to a mage, and
subpar sustained damage compared to a warrior, there's really nothing else they
bring to the table that would be more useful than that of another class. Some
may say stuns, poisons, and disorients are more useful that what other classes
have to offer, but I'm here refute those claims.
Take stuns for example: the rogue class’ defining ability. Once upon a time,
stuns were powerful. At level 60 "stunlocks" were enough to devastate most
opponents, leaving them low on health and options. Stunlocks forced opponents
into acting defensively. At 70, stunlocks aren't nearly as powerful, because it
doesn't force your opponents into a defensive mode. Rogues at 70 are forced into
survival gear sets, because they're so easily forced down. In survival gear sets
a rogue's attacks aren't hitting for nearly as hard as they could be.

Eviscerate, which used to save rogues at 60, is an ability that did not receive
a bonus from attack power or weapon scaling. Prior to the recent expansion, I
believe Eviscerate was scaled correctly for rogues. Don't get me wrong,
Eviscerate wasn't balanced at first. With most players at 3,000 or less health
upon hitting 60, eviscerate was causing way too much damage, but by the time
more PvP-oriented gear sets were acquired by the average player, it leveled out
the playing field. The problem with Eviscerate now is that it currently scales
with attack power. A PvP rogue is forced to sacrifice attack power in exchange
for survivability. Eviscerate, in conjunction with stuns, isn't enough anymore
to put a player in a defensive mode. Therefore, rogues lose their defining role
in stuns. Rogues geared to compete in 5v5s will lose a lot of damage, and they
have little to make up for it utility-wise.
An important point I should touch on is the increased chance to resist stun in
the game. There are games where every single opponent has a chance to resist my
stuns. For example, let’s examine this setup: Combat Rogue, Feral Druid,
Warrior, Priest, and Paladin. Each member of the team has a chance to resist
stuns based on talents alone. If you take that one step further, a lot of
players will opt to choose the 5% stun resist meta gem to place in their helm.
If stuns were meant to be the rogue class’ defining ability, it is no longer so.
So what about poisons? With the addition of wound poison and the new Shiv
ability, rogues are looking pretty fresh! Wrong again. From what I am told, at
level 70, the developers of the game intended for rogues to be a viable
replacement for warriors in group PvP. Let me be the first to say that this is
possibly the most laughable attempt at balance in this game since I began
playing two Novembers ago. Comparing a warrior's damage, healing de-buff
capabilities, and survivability to a rogue’s is no contest. No sane player would
bring a rogue to a group in exchange for a warrior. Now, prior to this change, a
rogue's wound poison was stackable with mortal strike. To be fair, it was
overpowered, but it was a reason to bring a rogue. However, this is no longer
the case, either.
Moving along to disorients. A rogue and mage can combine both their Sap (rogue)
and Sheep (mage) to put heavy pressure on the other team. Right? Wrong. If a
member of your team is sapped in a 5v5 arena setting, you are a part of a bad
team. Every class in the game, bar rogues (who are Stealthed to begin with),
have area of effect abilities that cost them little to nothing to use to break
the rogue from Stealth, preventing the Sap maneuver. Not to mention that Sap
costs 60 energy and requires both the rogue and his target to be out of combat.
Did I forget to mention Paranoia and Perception making it even more difficult to
approach a target while Stealthed? Gouge is cruising in the same boat. Although
it doesn't require a specific combat flag, or as much energy as Sap, it rarely
accomplishes much and is easily broken in the midst of a 5v5 battle. Blind is
probably the only savior to the disorient family. It costs little energy and is
affected by vile poisons. It's the closest thing rogues have to a consistent
crowd control maneuver, but comparing it to abilities like Polymorph or
Counterspell makes it look ridiculously inferior.
Do I have the solution to the rogue class? Hardly. All I know is if it remains
the same, you'll no longer see me under my rogue's name on our roster.
Ending on a positive note: our team has achieved the world’s first +2600 rating,
and is still number one ranked in the world!
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| About the Author |
Authors Latest Articles |
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Name: Mason Groendal
Alias: Nitrana
Age: 20
Location: Grandville, Michigan |
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| Comments |
| #1 |
Posted
on: 04/09/07 at: 04:19PM |
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Nice piece Mason... Interesting info on your class.. I hope it can be made more useful in the arena... Thankfully you're dynamic with a lot of classes now :D |
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628 Posts |
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| #2 |
Posted
on: 04/09/07 at: 04:46PM |
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blizzard is making 2v2,3v3, and 5v5 all give the same amount of points, instead of 60/80/100%
rogues are gonna crush 2v2/3v3 |
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115 Posts |
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| #3 |
Posted
on: 04/09/07 at: 05:09PM |
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Interesting points...
Why don't you compare rogue to Hunter if that's the class you swap in for? |
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126 Posts |
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| #4 |
Posted
on: 04/11/07 at: 01:53AM |
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-- "when you were four your mother said she got you a nintendo,"
-- no when i was at four i got shadow word pain. |
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399 Posts |
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| #5 |
Posted
on: 04/11/07 at: 04:10PM |
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Interesting points...
Why don't you compare rogue to Hunter if that's the class you swap in for?
I would imagine because hunters are NOT melee classes, and thus would not be what we should be worried about.
At this point, as absurd as it sounds, there should be NO reason why rogues shouldn't be as abundant as mages, if not warriors. But Blizzard just doesn't want to recognize our faults in the midst of the tons of terrible casters who can't stop QQ'ing about CLoS.
Increase our damage, give us more survivability so we all dont have to socket our gear out with solid stars, SOMETHING that'll make as a great class for arenas.Possibly a 41 point combat talent did as much as a sa/aggression'd SS? But with a cool added feauture?
Well, I'm just hoping for some miracle so rogues are going to be something to be feared. |
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6 Posts |
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| #6 |
Posted
on: 04/26/07 at: 02:16AM |
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First of all i am playing a rogue for 1 year now.
You say it right, that rogues are underpowered in 5v5, but i think they still excell at 1v1 or 2v2, so i don't know why you are upset. You are a part of a world 1st arena team, so please don't QQ, just reroll if rogue doesn't fit you, or just live with it it's better. I think you want to excell at all aspects of the game and pvp. Mages warlock etc have more control, more burst damage maybe. Try to play a healer in 5v5 arena and you will see, how "easy" is to play it, you will not have 1s to have a breath.
QQ less pew pew more .) |
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2 Posts |
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| #7 |
Posted
on: 04/26/07 at: 02:26AM |
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Nitrana Games:302 Wins:261 Losses:41 Win:86%
What is the problem here? Try to see it from you teams point of view rather than from yours... :)
GL |
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2 Posts |
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| #8 |
Posted
on: 04/27/07 at: 12:58PM |
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you and your teams qq about wanting all 5 of you standing at the end of each fight is a bit absurd. rogues are plenty powered and you guys need to rethink your strategy if your methods of having the rogue tank aren't working. oh wait, you're doing exceptionally well this way... so what's the problem? |
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| #9 |
Posted
on: 04/28/07 at: 02:45PM |
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Numbers don't tell the whole truth. I play against the team with lesser abilities. When the truly competitive teams are queueing. I am not. Rogues are inferior, and it's my personality to achieve the best possible chances of winning. Rogue isn't in that category. |
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31 Posts |
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| #10 |
Posted
on: 05/01/07 at: 06:06AM |
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Remarus |
I agree with damn near everything you said, Nitrana, and if I had the tenacity to level another character, I would. I think the furthest I got with my mage was 13 or 14 before I just couldn't take the class anymore. I love my rogue, and it's the only class I will ever play, but I see exactly the problems you are describing. I only hope Blizzard is actually paying attention so something eventually gets fixed... if it doesn't, well, maybe I'll go back to the POS game Matrix Online. At least they did rogues right there. |
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| #11 |
Posted
on: 05/10/07 at: 08:57AM |
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Hakai |
I feel your pain Nitrana :(
Good to see you're excelling though, makes me almost proud that you beat me 1v1 all those times lol :)
Hope our class gets fixed soon too, I really don't want to play a different class but if it continues this way I just might have to, oh well. Maybe we should just quit wow... Yeah, right.
Take it easy dude. |
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| #12 |
Posted
on: 05/10/07 at: 08:57AM |
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Ghensai |
Woops, Last post was me. I realised that the name you would remember is this one.
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| #13 |
Posted
on: 05/11/07 at: 03:48PM |
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CreaWH |
Ya im gonna have to agree with pretty much everything you posted, Blizz says this game is based around group pvp...imo balance rogues correctly around 5v5 or make 2v2/3v3 give more if not the same points as 5v5 |
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| #14 |
Posted
on: 06/20/07 at: 01:21AM |
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SomeRogue |
I complete agree with what Nitrana is saying. Rogues may do fine ok in 2 vs 2 hell we might be ok in 3vs3 if our partners are very good. But in 5 vs 5 we're underrated. Know why? Because by the time u get to 2000+ every single class has at least 20% resists to stuns, most of them with a gem if not all so 25 right there, warriors get to 30 with ease and orcs.... The word stunlock no longer exist because they are resisted so often by EVERY CLASS, and the newest patch just destroyed our only good cc blind with the new pvp trinket. Our damage isnt much good since a warrior can out dps us in a 5v5 arena and they have ms which instantly gets a 50% healing reduction which CANNOT be dispelled. Survibility-wise rogues are by far the worst as we have little armor and a smaller amount of hp than pretty much everyone else. I dont really know how this can be fixed but i hope it gets fixed and soon. Some people play for the love of the class and I hope blizz is willing to honor that. |
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| #15 |
Posted
on: 06/25/07 at: 07:53AM |
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Onick |
I Completely agree with all of you. Rogue, although a fun class to play imo, are not very viable for 5v5 right now. we give no real group buffs, the debuffs we can do are dispellable, and our CC abilities are completely diminished compared to what they were pre-BC. I really believe that something needs to be done about this ASAP. we end up sacrificing so much AP and possible DMG just to get more HP so we don't die as fast, its just absurd in my mind. |
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